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RE: Norcold smoked; Xantrex transfer switch failure
Update on inverter/charger: Fuse replaced. No damage. Working fine now. For other's future reference, this Xantrex troubleshooting document helped.
Update on refrigerator: Tech came out and replaced the AC fuse and the refrigerator (seemed to) work again on both AC and gas. He found no evidence of damage other than the deteriorated or damaged insulation around the flue.
We contacted Norcold and tried to convince them that my unit should qualify for the recall upgrade (even though my serial number is not). They declined. I concluded that I need to have the upgrade done at my own expense for safety.
As the day went on I eventually received a "no co" message on the display. I powered down and powered up and eventually received the no cooling message again. I learned that the system will only allow the user to reset the message once and then the system will not start again after the second message. In order to clear the message the second time, I had to open up the panel on the back and jumper a relay to get it start again (this is documented in the service manual). I did this process twice and now I've concluded that I have a failed cooling unit (AC or propane).
First, I don't think that my failed cooling unit was a result of the power surge, I think that it is coincidental. I do think that the smoke coming out my rooftop vent was a result of the cooling unit failing.
I don't have the smell of ammonia or any visible evidence of any residue. Nor did the tech notice either of those clues. Nonetheless, it is not cooling.
So, instead of buying the recall kit and merely replacing the flue, I am faced with replacing the entire cooling unit, perhaps. At the price of the cooling unit, I may be better off just replacing the entire refrigerator.
Your thoughts? Of course, I'm still going to work on getting Norcold to help out on this even though I am out of warranty and out of the recall.
I am now parked at a different RV park and I learned my lesson -- my surge protector is in place. I am going to attempt to the get the cooling unit going once again just to see if a change of RV parks brought a change of luck (I'm now parked at a casino just in case my luck really has changed).
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Gary Franks
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10/31/09 01:19pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Brake switch on a Freightliner chassis - where is it?
Aha, thanks MH4Two, that explains what my buddy and I were looking at when we both crawled under the coach this afternoon. I wish that I had read your post sooner.
We put off our testing until we find an aligator clamp to hold the testing wire onto the switches - we couldn't fit enough of our hands up there to hold the multitester probe in place.
Now I won't have a chance to get back under there until the weekend.
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Gary Franks
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10/29/09 07:50pm |
Class A Motorhomes
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RE: Brake switch on a Freightliner chassis - where is it?
Thanks for the encouragement guys, I'll try your suggestions in the morning.
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Gary Franks
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10/28/09 06:44pm |
Class A Motorhomes
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RE: Brake switch on a Freightliner chassis - where is it?
Thanks. I found it. Now I am asking myself "now what?" I was hoping to find a yellow Post-It note attached to it marked "fix this". Everything seems to intact. Does anybody know where I'd find documentation on this thing?
It was located just where you said it was, plainly visible from under the coach (I was expecting something a lot smaller - like in the car). Fortunately, I happen to be in an RV park where I had to have the front end of the coach be jacked up to the max to be level so I had plenty of room to crawl under and sit up (you're right -- it would require long arms if you're lying down).
Now that I have found it, I have no idea how to diagnose it. So unless I find some documentation, I guess it's off to the Freightliner or Fleetwood service center for me. Gosh, I hope they won't spend three days looking for my problem!
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Gary Franks
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10/28/09 12:39pm |
Class A Motorhomes
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RE: Windows 7
I attempted to upgrade Windows XP Professional to Windows 7 Ultimate. I was greeted by a message that stated that Windows XP cannot be upgraded to Windows 7 (it made no mention of the Pro edition vs. Ultimate). It did allow me to install it side by side which did not remove XP from the machine, it merely renamed the folder to Windows.old and made XP non-operational.
This particular Dell notebook PC is 5 years old and I must admit, Windows 7 has performed very fast on it. When I attempted to update the video driver, it merely went online by itself and found the correct driver. I have not yet installed any applications on it, but so far so good.
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Gary Franks
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10/27/09 11:12pm |
Technology Corner
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RE: Brake switch on a Freightliner chassis - where is it?
Troubleshooter (Bill), thank you... do I look for it by crawling under the coach or through the front generator compartment?
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Gary Franks
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10/27/09 09:33pm |
Class A Motorhomes
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RE: Dilemma, in regards to towing the toad.
Hi Pops,
I flat tow my Jeep. I never considered a trailer.
My current RV park neighbor has a brand new flat bed trailer for his car, but his toad is a Corvette. I don't think he really had a choice. He is already faced with the issue of having to pay for trailer storage wherever he goes. Right now, his trailer is parked with his RV at his campsite and he has to park the Corvette off site (seems kind backward to me). Aside from now having to park three vehicles, he also now has more tires, more registration, etc. He still had to have an electric brake controller installed in his motorhome. He also added a lot more weight to his rig.
As I said, he really didn't have much of choice because he bought a Corvette.
For a Jeep, I think the choice is clear: flat tow. I am assuming that your Jeep is 4WD. Also, here's a tip... the '09 Jeep Wrangler does not need the ignition key turned on to free the steering wheel for flat towing (therefore no need to pull the fuse) -- a real bonus over the '07 and '08 Jeep such as mine.
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Gary Franks
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10/27/09 09:29pm |
Dinghy Towing
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Brake switch on a Freightliner chassis - where is it?
Where is the brake switch on a Freightliner chassis motorhome (2005 Bounder Diesel 39Z)?
My air brakes work fine, but the brake lights do not come on nor does the cruise control disengage when I press the brake pedal. The brake lights come on as they should when the compression brake engages but will go out when the compression brake releases and only the service brake is engaged.
The symptoms suggest a faulty or disconnected brake switch but I don't know where it is or what it looks like. Can somebody please point me in the right direction?
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Gary Franks
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10/27/09 09:07pm |
Class A Motorhomes
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RE: Norcold smoked; Xantrex transfer switch failure
Update: Electrical issues resolved, smoke understood but not resolved...
You folks were correct in your analysis. What I observed in my testing of the power pedestal as LOW voltage had actually caused HIGH voltage to my motorhome. That caused a 120v fuse in the Xantrex inverter/charger to blow, preventing any damage to the Xantrex (it is back in operation). It also caused a 120v fuse in the Norcold refrigerator to blow, possibly preventing any damage to the refrigerator (I say 'possibly' because I'm not sure if the refrigerator is okay, it was back in operation as I began to write this message).
The smoke as observed by my neighbor (and the residual smell), I believe, was caused by the cooling unit chimney flue overheating and causing the insulation to smoke. I think that this overheating was coincidental to the power problem that I had. The power problem merely caused my refrigerator to automatically switch to propane when the fuse burned out. After switching to propane, the flue got hotter. I can't think of any other connection between the power problem and the smoking. Although I frequently run the refrigerator on propane, it just chose this time to get too hot.
I believe that the overheating is the very issue that has caused Norcold to issue the famous recall. However, multiple phone calls to Norcold have confirmed that my unit's serial number is not part of the recall. Even my technician explained the condition of my flue to Norcold, they declined to include me in the recall.
However, I'm not through with Norcold yet. I will make additional attempts to get them to include my refrigerator in the recall. Of course, even if Norcold does not cover it, I will pay to have it done. The chimney is obviously too hot and the insulation is obviously damaged. I have the kit number that I need to purchase and my mobile tech is able and willing to perform the upgrade (it involves pulling the refrigerator from its space).
Nonetheless, I don't think that I have found all of the damage. I am now receiving a "no co" error message on the display. According to my mobile tech, this "no cooling" message will occur twice and then it will require a reset at the system board level. I just received my second "no co" message while I was writing this -- so now I'll try the reset procedure.
I'll report more info as I figure it out...
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Gary Franks
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10/27/09 04:29pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Norcold smoked; Xantrex transfer switch failure
byronlj, I'll bet you're right... I checked one of the internal fuses, but I didn't see the second one. I'm going to go stick my head in there again and see if I can find it. The Xantrex manual doesn't go into that detail. Thank you.
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Gary Franks
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10/27/09 09:35am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Norcold smoked; Xantrex transfer switch failure
To confirm Wayne's analysis, a Xantrex troubleshooting documents indicates that an overvoltage can occur... "If neutral becomes open in a 50-amp or larger service with two legs of AC power that are out of phase (220/240 volts), an over-voltage will occur. This is caused by an imbalance between the two legs of power."
When I watched the RV park's engineering staff open the power pedestal, it was indeed the neutral wire that had come disconnected.
So perhaps the damage was done by overvoltage rather that undervoltage as I had originally thought.
MI Director, yup -- I should have been using my Progressive Industries surge protector. This RV park was one of the few places that I have not used it.
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Gary Franks
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10/26/09 10:30pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Norcold smoked; Xantrex transfer switch failure
Wayne, my tester, a Progressive Industries EMS PT50C (which I should have used in the first place), gives me voltage readings on each leg separately (120v on one leg, 1 volt on the other), it does not give me a combined 240+/- as using a voltmeter would have. I did have the electric water heater on during that time but not the A/C units. And of course the charger/converter was working at that time. Thank you for your input.
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Gary Franks
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10/26/09 01:42pm |
Tech Issues
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Norcold smoked; Xantrex transfer switch failure
Could low voltage on one leg of my 50 amp shore power have caused my refrigerator to start smoking and also cause my inverter's internal transfer switch to fail? Possibly two separate problems, but because they occurred simultaneously, I have lumped the issues together.
Here's the complete story with more details than may be necessary...
While I was away from my motorhome, a neighbor in the RV park noticed "significant" smoke coming from my rooftop refrigerator vent. When he approached my motorhome, he smelled electrical burning. He unplugged my shore power and the smoke went away. The RV park security staff stood by the coach until I returned 20 minutes later. My refrigerator was still running (now on propane). Everything else was fine, including AC items that were now running off of the inverter. I shut everything off. No visible issues or damage from smoke or fire. I went up to the roof and confirmed that the smell had definitely come from the refrigerator vent.
I began to turn things on, one by one, in an attempt to diagnose the problem. When I plugged the shore power cable back in, the inverter/charger did not switch from invert to charge. I checked the RV park's power pedestal to discover that I was not getting 120 volts on both legs of my 50 amp connection. One leg was delivering about 1 volt. The RV park's engineering staff came by and confirmed the problem by finding a loose wire inside their power pedestal.
I plugged my shore power cable into an adjacent site's (properly working) power pedestal and resumed my investigation. The inverter would still not switch over from invert to charge and it would not pass through the AC to the two branch circuits from it (my inverter/charger has its own subpanel for AC out).
Now that I was back on shore power, I turned the refrigerator back on. It attempted to start using AC but quickly changed itself over to LP and started working again. (by the way, AC for the refrigerator does not pass through the inverter/charger).
Now I turned my attention back to the inverter. Even if I ran the generator, the inverter did not recognize the AC source and switch over.
AC that does not pass through the inverter/charger works fine. All of the other circuits on both legs of my 50 amp connector properly feed their loads (e.g.; water heater, A/C, non-inverter outlets) on shore power and on generator.
Since I had only checked-in at this RV park the evening before this incident occurred, it is very probable that the shore power was bad from the beginning. My Intellitec Smart EMS does not recognize low voltage on only one leg of a 50 amp connection. It will be confused and indicate that I am on shore power, while I am in fact partially on shore power and partially on inverter. So it is probable that my inverter/charger was not charging, but in fact inverting the whole time that I was at this RV park (about 18 hours). I believe this is the case since my house batteries had a lowered state of charge when I began diagnosing all of this.
I believe that the inverter/charger problem was definitely caused by the loose wire in the power pedestal because the inverter/charger was working fine when I left my previous RV park about 6 hours earlier. However, I still have not figured out what is wrong with the inverter/charger.
The refrigerator problem still baffles me. It is possible that the refrigerator was running on propane the whole time since it may have sensed that it was not getting good AC. If this is the case, could it have been just a coincidence that the refrigerator would start smoking and then stop smoking the moment that the coach is unplugged?
Of course, I know about the Norcold recall but my unit is not one of the serial numbers included in either the recall or the extended recall. Is it possible that whatever was causing the recalled units to catch fire happened to mine also, and it just happened to occur on the day of low voltage? Now that my refrigerator is working on LP only, I notice that the chimney is very, very hot but I have never checked the chimney before this incident to make any comparison. By the way, I am not leaving my refrigerator running unattended.
Today, I am trying to get a mobile tech out to diagnose the refrigerator failure in an attempt to determine if it was related to the low voltage. If that is the case, then the RV park may help me with my repairs (they have already begun to document the incident for their insurance carrier).
I am trying to figure out what is wrong with the inverter/charger too. In the meantime, I went out and bought a stand alone battery charger to recharge my house batteries, otherwise I would have to run my main engine to recharge with my alternator.
I will be taking the motorhome into a dealer if I can't diagnose the issues with a mobile tech. In the meantime, I'd love to hear your analysis and maybe point me in the right direction.
Please don't admonish me for not checking the power pedestal, I already know better.
2005 Fleetwood Bounder Diesel 39Z
Norcold 1200LRIM w/ice maker (AC/propane) (not in slide) (cooling unit s/n CU1744720)
Xantrex Freedom 458 20D
Intellitec Smart EMS
all relevant equipment is original
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Gary Franks
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10/26/09 12:03pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Norcold Fridge -- Rerfer not cooling but Freezer is good
I just realized that my refrigerator has similar symptoms as the OP’s – freezer compartments okay, refer compartment not cold enough (regardless of temp setting). Apparently I have had this problem for a few weeks as recently milk has not been lasting as long as it should have. Some weeks I was on AC all of the time, some weeks I was on gas most of the time.
I don’t have a thermometer, but it seems that the refrigerator compartment is colder at the top (where I keep the butter and cheese) than at the bottom (where I keep the milk and soft drinks). Sounds like a fan issue?
I have a Norcold model 1200LRIM. I am fulltime, refrigerator has been working non-stop for over 4 years (not bad for a recreational refrigerator), and so if I have to replace something I won’t be disappointed.
Any suggestions before I call the serviceman?
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Gary Franks
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07/27/09 08:24pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Athol, Coeur d' Alene, ID RV Parks? Any Good Ones?
Just south of Silverwood's (95 near Garwood Rd.) is Alpine Country Store and RV Park (no website that I know of). Nice park with full hook ups, pull thrus, laundry, 24 hr. store. (208) 772-4305, but they're probably booked too.
Farragut State Park has nice RV sites (that are also probably booked), but also has a dry camping area that is almost never full. It is real boondocking -- there is nothing there but the trees and the sky.
If you need hookups, there are a couple very small RV parks in Bayview (just past Farragut on Lake Pend Oreille), but I couldn't find contact info for you.
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Gary Franks
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07/23/09 07:55pm |
RV Parks, National Parks, State Campgrounds & More
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RE: 2008 Jeep wrangler
Since the '08 Jeep Wrangler requires that you turn the ignition key to the first click to unlock the steering, the Jeep will drain its battery if you leave it like this for long (like a long haul or an overnight stop at a rest area). You do not need to disconnect the battery cable, as an alternative you can merely pull the IOD fuse (you'll find its location in your owner's manual). Another option is to maintain the battery with a charge line from the coach, but this line would need to powered even when your coach is turned off to keep the Jeep battery charged.
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Gary Franks
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06/22/09 09:34am |
Dinghy Towing
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RE: FloJet
I have a FloJet. I've frequently pumped 100' on level ground (actually up and over a 3' berm) without any problem. Going downhill 200' the only heavy work on the pump would be the maceration. If it were just gray water, I'd just use gravity flow without the pump.
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Gary Franks
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06/19/09 10:41am |
General RVing Issues
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RE: Length of break-away cable
I don't know the correct answer here... I'm just throwing out some thoughts:
I've shredded two breakaway cables when they got caught under the hitch as I dragged across a driveway.
I've never wanted to secure the cable to anything in between because I wouldn't want that to keep the brake from engaging in the event of a breakaway.
I would think that I want the breakaway cable shorter than the safety chains because I would want the brakes to engage when there is a hitch failure but not a safety chain failure. That way the trailer (or in my case, the toad) would not crash into the back of the tow vehicle as you stop.
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Gary Franks
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06/18/09 01:09pm |
Towing
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RE: Tire Stem Question
Prior to installing my Pressure Pro sensors, I had already added some curved extenders to make it easier to check and add air, plus my coach already came with straight extenders for the inner duals. However, the straight extenders were just about an inch short of what I needed to put the sensor in the right place.
I bought 'airless' extensions from the local RV store. These have a long stick in the center (a 'dill') that pushes on the valve stem on the tire while you push on the valve stem dill on the end of the extension. This did not work with the Pressure Pro sensors. I needed straight extensions that did NOT have a dill in them (just as the curved extenders do not).
I couldn't find one in the right length so I called Wheel Masters (the manufacturer of the extenders that I bought at the RV store). They custom built what I needed and sent it to me the next day (same price as the store-bought ones).
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Gary Franks
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06/05/09 09:02am |
Class A Motorhomes
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RE: TPMS Question
I have the Pressure Pro system. I have placed the sensors on my '08 Jeep toad which has its own TPMS. No problems. FYI, I move my toad sensors from the Jeep to my other toad and then sometimes to my boat trailer (tandem axle). When the toad's sensors are on the boat trailer, I take the Pressure Pro monitor and place it in the Jeep while I'm towing the boat behind it. I can then rely on the Jeep's own TPMS for itself and then the Pressure Pro for the boat trailer. I don't have to mess with the sensors on the coach.
BWhite, I wish that I had read that admonition about aluminum stems sooner... my Jeep has aluminum stems and I had a hard time getting the sensors off just the other day (rotated the tires and I wanted to swap the sensors). Now I have stripped threads on one stem and the aluminum is stuck in the brass threads of my sensor. I'm guessing that I'll have to replace the sensor and the valve stem. And yes, they were exposed to salt when I pulled the Jeep through Oregon this last winter.
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Gary Franks
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06/05/09 08:43am |
Class A Motorhomes
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