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RE: Can I pull our travel trailer with a semi?
That's right- a weight police entry that is acutally saying he is more than adequate for what he is towing!!!
My post was meant to help him understand how we, the folks who may stop him, process what he doing and to help him end such a contact sooner by explaining the "not in commerce" aspect of his combination. I contact many drivers and so few know more than a cursory amount of the commercial vehicle regulations and often weight issues get confused or co-mingled with commercial vehicle regulations. Weight is a part of the commercial vehicle issue to help determine whether a certain vehicle or combination may be subject to the regulations, but past that the only thing the federal regulations say about weight is that one cannot load more on a tire than the sidewall rated maximum. State weight laws are the issue concerning actual weights. I have said it before in weight discussions that the only real weight law violation RV'ers may run afoul of is exceeding maximum rating on sidewalls. Otherwise, it is unlikely that most RV'ers will be putting more than 20,000 pounds on a single axle or more than 34,000 pounds on a tandem. There may be some registration violations of not buying enough registered weight for RV combinations but that is a registration ticket.
Discussions surrounding overloading a manufacturers GCVWR or GAWR or GVWR are not ones of enforcement concern.
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Jane and Pat
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09/29/09 05:36pm |
Travel Trailers
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RE: Twist Chains???
Better to have too long chains than none at all.
DO NOT TWIST CHAINS. They will fail when you need them most. DO NOT TWIST CHAINS!
Did I mention DONT TWIST CHAINS? Oh yes, I did mention that! :B
I get the point about not twisting the chains, although you provide no reason not to do so, I assume it is because it pre-stresses them such that they may not provide sufficient strength to catch the semi-trailer tongue in the event the semi-trailer becomes separated from the power unit (although I don't claim to be a metallurgist). So to recommend the OP not twist chains to the detriment of having the chains too long completely eliminates the safety advantage that the chains are supposed to perform.
In the case of Texas law, there is no prohibition in the code against having the chains twisted, but there are specific points in the law that require the chains to be of sufficient strength to hold the semi-trailer, to be crossed under the tongue such that the semi-trailer will not contact the ground in case of separation, and that neither the chains nor the tongue may contact the roadway while the combination is in motion. So I fail to see that your advice is at all helpful to the O.P. In fact, the O.P. would actually be better to have too short a chain than too long a chain provided he didn't turn so sharply that he snapped one or both of them (which describes the roads on which most folks do their high speed towing- the interstates and US highways- they wouldn't be rated for higher speeds if there were sharp turns in them).
What I am saying is that there is a specific purpose to safety chains and that much of the advice on this thread has been contrary to this purpose. Either the chains serve the intent found within the law and the engineering of such systems or it doesn't. If it doesn't than it doesn't much matter whether the O.P. has them or not (twisted or otherwise).
I will admit that there are more likely ways to receive a citation on our roadways than to have insufficient or no safety chains. And I will also admit that semi-trailer separation is not a common problem. But this is a safety issue that is required under law and if one is given to circumvent it or ignore it, then I wonder what other areas of safety are also being ignored. Pay attention to all areas of safety including your equipment, its care and maintenance, and also in its use. If we all take care to do these things, we will all be travelling more safely and decreasing the hazards on our roadways that we all want to avoid.
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Jane and Pat
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09/28/09 07:47pm |
Towing
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RE: Can I pull our travel trailer with a semi?
I can address the issues regarding commercial vehicle regulations. You are fine as long as you are not in commerce. If you are not in commerce, none of the Federal Motor Carrier Regulations will apply (regardless of whether you put "not for hire" signs on your vehicle). Commercial DL laws will apply since they are mostly based on weight and not on whether you are in commerce- but I assume you are already properly licensed with a Class A CDL.
The point I was trying to make is if you are using your semi-tractor, for hauling during the week you will have to have commercial license plates on it. When you hook to your RV for a weekend trip you will still have your commercial license plates on your semi-tractor. When you blow by an open weigh station, and are run down by the commercial truck inspectors they will look at your plates and the problems will start. If you are never checked you will have no problems. And if you talk to three different LEO's you will get three different stories. Been there-done that-paid the fines to prove it.
His commercial plates have nothing to do with determining whether he is "in commerce" or hauling goods or people for hire. He may well have to comply with weigh strips since weight laws are state laws and federal motor carrier regulations are federal regulations affecting any vehicle or combination over 10,000 pounds engaged in interstate commerce. I am a commercial vehicle enforcement officer and a weight enforcement officer. While I agree that you will find differing answers to one question among law enforcement officers, they all cannot be correct. If the gentlemam is hauling an RV with a truck tractor that also is used for commercial purposes I promise him he won't have a problem at a weigh station with his weights. If he blows past an open weigh strip towing an RV, he may be chased down for not stopping but he won't have a weight issue since he likely has a token registraino in which all the weight is assigned to the power unit (usually 80,000 pounds). I have a hard time believing he is hauling a 60,000 pound fith wheel, although I suppose one could be made. He will never be over 34,000 pounds on his tandem axle on the tractor. Even if his trailer is registered under the it's actual weight, most officers combine all the registered weight from both units in the combination to determine whether he has paid for enough weight.
As far as being stopped for an inspection- yes that is entirely possible, but the officer's interview should quickly determine that he is not in commerce and therefore not subject to the regulations the inspection seeks to enforce.
His DL class does not determine whether he is in commerce or not either. My point on his DL was that he is surely already licenced with a Class A CDL. In Texas, where we did not adopt the federal CDL law, he would only need a class B (non CDL) for the rig he is comtemplating unless his trailer's manufactuerer's gross weight rating exceeds 10,000 pounds, in which case he would need a class A (non-CDL) and his current class A CDL would also be more than adequate. Texas has a separate non-CDL licensing category spefically to meet the licensing requirements of folks who tow or drive heavier RV's (again, not in commerce).
I am sorry if you have paid tickets that were not justified in their issuance in the first place but that doesn't mean this gentleman will encounter similar problems.
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Jane and Pat
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09/28/09 04:29pm |
Travel Trailers
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RE: Twist Chains???
Ron,
I live and work in Texas, so that is my reference point. It is found in the Texas Administrative Code (TAC) Title 37, Part 1, Chapter 21, Rule 21.7 "Safety Chains".
Here is the relevant portion of the code to answer your question:
(1) Two separate and individual safety chains shall be used simultaneously in all situations where safety chains are required.
(2) The two safety chains will be of equal length, long enough to permit free turning of the vehicles without placing stress on the chains, and attached to the towing vehicle equidistant right and left of the point at which the vehicles are connected. They must be of appropriate length to allow for them to be crossed under the tongue, or connecting apparatus, of the towed vehicle in such a manner that they would prevent it from coming into contact with the road surface should the vehicles become detached. In no event will the safety chains be allowed to contact the road surface during movement of the vehicles.
(3) Safety chains shall be of sufficient strength to prevent the vehicles from separating in the event the towed vehicle disengages from the towing vehicle under ordinary towing conditions.
(4) Safety chains must be attached to either side of the tongue or connecting apparatus of the towed vehicle, equidistant forward and aft of the hitch or connector. They shall not be directly welded to the towed vehicle, but rather shall be connected by means of bolts, pins, or other secure connecting methods, that meet necessary strength requirements.
(e) Enforcement Policy. When the use of safety chains are required in accordance with subsection (a) of this section, enforcement actions should be initiated against all persons apprehended who are operating a towing and towed vehicle in combination:
(1) without both safety chains securely attached;
(2) when safety chains are improperly attached to the degree that one or both are in contact with surface of the road;
(3) when the failure of either or both safety chains or the manner in which they are attached allow the vehicles to become disconnected or allow the tongue or connecting apparatus of the towed vehicle to come into contact with the road surface during ordinary towing operations; or
(4) when the failure of either or both safety chains or the manner in which they are attached results in an accident.
http://info.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/readtac$ext.TacPage?sl=R&app=2&p_dir=&p_rloc=73897&p_tloc=&p_ploc=&pg=1&p_tac=73897&ti=37&pt=1&ch=21&rl=7&dt=&z_chk=1072615&z_contains=safety%20chains
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Jane and Pat
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09/28/09 11:27am |
Towing
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RE: Towing 5th wheel with a utility trailer for golf car??
Brakes on that trailer will almost certainly be required in most states. One thing that has not been mentioned here is that every state has a maximum legal length for combinations. You will have to check each state in which you plan to tow to verify what the maximum lenght laws are- my guess is that you may well be over on some of them. The other legal issue is licensing in the state where you reside. You should check those laws to determine if you need an endorsement to your drivers license to tow more than one trailer- most states require this but the laws could be relaxed if you are towing an RV not in commerce. One final point, you may well be required to get a different class of DL in the state where you reside, although it may not be a commercial license that you need (again exceptions in individual state licensing laws that have not adopted the federal licensing requirements may allow non-commercial recreational vehicles to be licensed with a class B or A but not commerical B or A as in Texas- it comes down to how much your combination weighs- over 26,000 pounds is the threshold for class B).
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Jane and Pat
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09/27/09 07:00pm |
Towing
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RE: towing enclosed car trailer with 37 foot tri axle motorhome
You should check your state laws on drivers license and make sure you are properly licenced (sounds like you will need a Class B from what you have posted as long as the trailer has a weight rating plate of 10,000 or under). If no weight plate is on the trailer, then actual weight will be used, or registered weight, whichever is greater, and you will likely be looking at a class A. If you race your car for money (eg a business) and you cross state lines, you will need to register as a motor carrier and will be subject to the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations.
It sounds like you are shoehorning two pieces of imcompatible equipment together for your convenience without precaution to the dangers your new rig may pose to other highway users. I personally don't want to find you driving on our highways, regardless of how many other "unsafe" rigs you have previously towed, or happen to see drving down the road.
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Jane and Pat
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09/27/09 06:34pm |
Towing
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RE: Twist Chains???
The safety chains are meant to catch the trailer tongue if the trailer should become separated from the tow vehicle. Too long a chain will not provide this safety feature and therefore tying links together with a plastic fastner is not a solution (apart from it will keep the chains from dragging on the roadway). For safety chains to serve their purpose they need to be bridled (crossed once under the tongue) and they need to not be so long that they drag on the ground. If either of these two points are not met with your current set up then you can simply elimante and remove the chains altogether since they will not serve the purpose they were designed to meet. And yes, it will be illegal but then your current situation is also illegal since no part of a vechicle can legally contact the roadway excpet tires.
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Jane and Pat
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09/27/09 06:16pm |
Towing
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RE: Can I pull our travel trailer with a semi?
13' 6'' is stout for many camgrounds. I can address the issues regarding commercial vehicle regulations. You are fine as long as you are not in commerce. If you are not in commerce, none of the Federal Motor Carrier Regulations will apply (regardless of whether you put "not for hire" signs on your vehicle). Commercial DL laws will apply since they are mostly based on weight and not on whether you are in commerce- but I assume you are already properly licensed with a Class A CDL.
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Jane and Pat
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09/27/09 06:02pm |
Travel Trailers
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RE: Camping Advice for Boston
I grew up north of Boston. I would recommend a campground in Littleton MA. It is not especially "close" to Boston but is near a commuter rail line (www.mbta.com)
http://www.minutemancampground.com/
I haven't camped there but I have driven through the campgrounds. It is heavily wooded and in a nice area away from the hustle and bustle. It is close to major highways (Route 2 and I-495). As I said, it is not far from a commuter train that will take you to the heart of town (North Station).
It is on the Fitchburg commuter rail line http://www.mbta.com/schedules_and_maps/rail/
Whatever place you decide on, I would recommend staying near a commuter line to make transit into town easy for your family. I am not sure that you will find a campground within a stone's throw of downtown Boston, so you should look closely at places that are about 20 to 30 miles out and located on the public transportation.
Hope this helps,
Pat in Texas
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Jane and Pat
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09/27/09 05:01pm |
Family Camping
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